9/12th Lancers and Fox

Its all Irish to me cobber

JPW wrote:

Troy

I think you have the wrong place. Martin will probably confirm but the contingency plans for the use of MBT involved the Bogside in Londonderry/Derry City not Belfast.

Yes indeed, that's what I knew anyway. Working in the Ops room HQ NI was a real eye opener.

OOOOOOOHH Sven Hassel, and the punishment Bn books. I think I must have read every one.

"wheels of terror" would have to be my favourite! How about "The Devils gaurd" about the SS in Vietnam.....

Speaking of good books...got my "fathers day" pressie today. "Uniforms and Insignia of the Royal Armoured Corps since 1946" by John Bodsworth...fantastic stuff! Took three weeks to get here but worth it!

The use of British military presence in Belfast was kept at a minimum - it may not have appeared that way but it was. The largest problem was Londonderry or 'free Derry' as the IRA put it and their subversive implementation of no go areas.

At the time there was valid reason for fear that the IRA had already acquired a certain amount of high tech weaponry which posed a significant threat to the security forces. We are talking modern assault rifles, concealable handguns, light anti tank rockets (RPG 7).

Also, the security forces knew that the IRA was funding bright, young republicans to enrol (and paid for) their university studies to become chemists and affiliated subjects - something that later helped develop massively succesful IEDs.

Tanks of the tracked variety were held in reserve and would have come into use should the infantry/recce types not have prevailed but as we know, we outmatched the IRA easily once they were in the open - I think even the Italian army would have done also.....

Eyeties thats a bit much LOL! I had read elsewhere, where the "boys" sent brights to the US to learn how to subvert the electronic airways.
Why has there been not much ( I thunk me granmar suchs thar) written by the "squaddies" about their time in NI?

Oh there has, trust me. The market is awash with literature - some downright awful of peoples times in NI - other books are pretty damn decent!

Sorry we don't get much down here. If it isn't the good old ANZAC in dastardly Gallipoli and dopey "pommy" officers it isn't on the shelves

just trawl amazon.co.uk you'll soon see loads of trash and they will send down under

BobG wrote:

In early 1972 the Eastern Armd Recce Regt ( comprising RHQ QOH, A Sqn QOH, A Sqn Scots DG) based at Gosford Castle near Markethill, used Saladin and Saracens for patrols in South Armagh. the Western Armd Recce Regt (Resident Recce Regt) based in Omagh had CVR(W).
Bob

Hi Bob I went to Gosford Castle several times from the Nicker Factory Lurgan 3 Bde HQ in 72/73 there was an 'urban myth' that Gosford Castle had tanks in the cellars
Regards
Steve

Themaadone wrote:

Wheeled vehicles only in Ulster however - during Op Motorman (Clearing the IRAs 'No Go Areas') tracked vehicles were used albeit in a very small capacity - I wrote a paper on the IS situation and the British Army during Op Motorman for my history degree and I found, during research, that the RE, REME and RTR had limited tracked vehicles which were found to be unsuitable and too militaristic.

The REME/RE retained a couple of AVREs for purposes of vehicle recovery but even they only lasted a short period.

The choice armoured vehicle was the 'PIG' manufactired by Humber - which when I drove them were a pig to drive!

Later, Land Rover supplied the Shoreland armored Land Rover which also didn't have F1 driving qualities I can assure you.

Hi Martin
Operation Motorman four Centurion AVREs from 26 Armd Engr Sqn Haigh Barracks Hohne moved to England and embarked on HMS Fearless 30 Jul 72 landing near Londonderry early morning 31 Jul 72 within 3 hours job done and back on board…as a precaution the AVREs had ROYAL ENGINEERS painted on the side thought this was the only time tanks were deployed
Cheers
Steve

Well now, I never knew that, it was a bit before my time though. Thanks Steve

The AVREs were for barricade removal, weren't they Steve ?

I believe the first tanks used were Chieftain ARVs and the blades broke on the concrete barricades. Thus the RE kit!

Steve,

As far as I know the only things in the cellars at Gosford Castle were QM stores and a Sqn Bar at either end, the corridor between them was known as the Battlefield, no love lost between the QOH and the Scots DG. The Fitters had their hideaway at the top of one of the towers - peaceful and civilised.

Bob

Straight from 'The History of the Corps of Royal Engineers Vol XI 1960 - 1980'

Operation Motorman
The low profile adopted by the Army in the early part of the year led to some concern that the Security Forces could no longer contain the situation. The terrorists had a significant grip on their own communities and the Protestants were becoming increasingly restive, expressing strong resentment against the ‘No Go’ areas in Belfast and in Londonderry. Prompted in part by these concerns a major Army operation was mounted on 31 July 1972 known as Operation Motorman, to reoccupy the ‘No Go’ areas. A total of 21,000 troops were concentrated in the Province and the intention was announced beforehand, as A result of which there was very little resistance from the PIRA. The operation was one of the biggest undertaken by the British Amy since the invasion of Suez in 1956. Its aim was to re-establish the Army in all the hard Republican areas, particularly the Creggan and Bogside in Londonderry and the Andersonstown, Ballymurphy and the Markets areas of Belfast. These areas were well protected by barricades and their clearance was the first step to ensure freedom of movement. A troop of four Centurion AVREs from 26 Armoured Engineer Squadron in Germany was moved to England and embarked on HMS Fearless on 30 July 1972. H-hour for the operation was 0400 hours on 31 July and by H minus 2 a cordon was in place in Londonderry around the Bogside and the Creggan, securing the start line for the four battalions who were to occupy the area. The AVREs were landed from landing craft across the beach in Londonderry and led the assault to clear a way through the barricades on all four battalion routes. The barricades were formidable and in one instance almost led to an AVRE blade being sheared off. The clearance of the barricades drew only spasmodic fire and one gunman and one petrol bomber were shot dead. By 0700 hours all the objectives had been secured and the AVREs were re-embarked and cleared from Northern Ireland. The use of tanks in any Internal Security Operation is always a very emotive subject and in the eyes of the media any tracked armoured vehicle is a tank. As a precaution the AVREs had ROYAL ENGINEERS painted prominently on their sides, but in the event there was little publicity and few pictures, and the significance of their use was lost in the general reporting of the operation.

From 'The British Army in Ulster Vol I'



Cheers
Steve
PS Notice the banter between REME and RE continues we used to say 'Royal Engineers minus education'

BobG wrote:

Steve,

As far as I know the only things in the cellars at Gosford Castle were QM stores and a Sqn Bar at either end, the corridor between them was known as the Battlefield, no love lost between the QOH and the Scots DG. The Fitters had their hideaway at the top of one of the towers - peaceful and civilised.

Bob

Hi Bob
Did say 'Urban Myth'...from Feb 72 when 3 Bde arrived in Lurgan SDS was done in two lightweight Land Rovers and everybody had to do escort duties to get know the Brigade area so remember several runs to Gosford Castle then the powers that be decided on Army Minis painted in civvy colours to save on manpower trouble was the inside was still green and while remembering NI number plates somembody forgot about tax discs....
Cheers
Steve

Nice one Steve.

(Looks like the "Windy Creggan").

That's a great Photo Steve, thanks

Hi Brum and Jim
I was not in the Creggan that day but on duty not to far away in Lurgan County Armagh
Cheers
Steve
"Finding myself in odd parts of the World - as you did very often as a soldier - always like to know something about its history sure this healthy curiosity is shared by all of us"

Great pic of the Centurion....my wife should drive one to work

handler 69 wrote:

Sorry we don't get much down here. If it isn't the good old ANZAC in dastardly Gallipoli and dopey "pommy" officers it isn't on the shelves

"Gallipoli", yeah, I saw that film too. Apparently it was an all - ANZAC battle. I've seen war memorials round here that contradict that one. What IS Mel Gibson's problem ? He's a right Pom - hater.

Yes Iam sorry about that fellas...up till recently everything here was related to Gallipoli and it took alot of work by chaps like me, going into the schools and teaching the kids and the teachers about the "Western Front" and the truth behind places and events at Gallipoli....that included the British, NZ, Indian and other Commonwealth troops involved.
Whilst NOT a Mel Gibson fan ( I hated "Braveheart" load of crap!) he is a kiwi so don't blame us Aussies LOL , you really must look at the director and the fact that the film and the book was based on events at the "Nek" and the illfated charges of the 4th Australian Light horse there. So yes it does ignore the Brits and Iam afraid the Aussie "jingoism" has up and till late played it all as one large homeric Australian tradgedy...though we lost more men in Fromelles in one day then we did in the entire Gallipoli campaign...but I digress LOL.
I think Mel Gibson hates anything that isn't Mel Gibson...typical film star!! LOL

And let's not forget the 6 VC's before breakfast of the 20th of foot, the Lancashire Fusiliers at Gallipoli.

You've got nothing to apologise for mate, we Brits are constantly misrepresented in movies.
I don't suppose you Aussies are too happy about Les Patterson either !

Fromelles has been in the news over here quite a lot since that mass grave was uncovered. Tragic.

An update. A Nigel was a early form of Rupert. (All Nigels were required to marry a girl called Fiona by the way).
Other things carried in vehicles and deemed vital were; A plastic bowl, brightly coloured, for washing in. A LARGE jar of instant coffee and an even LARGER jar of curry powder.

brum
(I was an Army Dog Handler for three years).