27th Canadian Infantry Brigade

Hi BobG that's good. I have to admit the average meat head was a good guy. I last saw Longue Pointe Barracks in 74 on my way to Egypt. The idea was at the time was to train Air Force and Navy types in some field training. When they found out our contingent was mainly army, it was a big party. Don't think we required MP assistance as the we mainly stayed on base, for two days. Also I'm still curious about your drone trials in 65 as I was involved in met. readings done in Shilo in conjunction with a drone project. This was from Sept to Dec 1963. There were 5 spots that simultaneous realises of met balloons and readings taken. One det was at the Met building in Shilo, one at Trg point Gulf on the ranges (my det), one at the main entrance of Shilo, one near Carberry and one other I think, but can't remember the location. So now that this is as far as we can get from 27 Bde BAOR I'll get back on line.

Hardrations,
Again wandering away from 27 CIB. I doubt if your met trials were anything to do with the CL 89 System as it did not fly (unsuccessfully) until Mar 64 at Yuma Proving Grounds, Arizona. We moved to YPG from Montreal in Apr 65 to complete contractor and then service engineering trials, then moving to Shilo in mid 67 to carry out user and cold weather trials, returning to the UK in Dec 67 - home just in time for xmas.
BobG

BobR
Given that air movement was limited during 27 CIB time I assume that the movement of personnel from Canada was by sea and rail. Did this mean that personnel were moved in large numbers by sea from Canada to a European port and then by rail to Hannover or was there trickle posting as well by civilian passenger ships. Did BAOR provide your day to day needs for POL, rations and ammo or did you have a separate supply chain for these as well.

BobG

BobG
Thanks for your inquiry regarding movement of personnel for the 27CIB to Hannover in 1951 You are right , there was negligible, if any, movement of personnel by aircraft to Germany. The bulk of the personnel went over in Dec 1951 by chartered troop ship. I believe most of the Bde went on an Italian ship, the Fairsea, from Canada to Rotterdam and then by BAOR rail to Hannover.
As well, there were smaller contingents which also went by sea from Canada to Southampton or Liverpool and then by train to Harwich, Hoek of Holland. Hannover. In my case in 1952, a group of about 8 of us went by Cunard Line from Quebec City to Southampton, to London, on to Harwich to the Hoek and train to Hannover. When I completed my tour again a group of about 8 of us went home from Liverpool to Montreal on the Empress of France, a CP ship. I do not believe any Canadian Navy ships were used. As far as supply was concerned it was a muddle from the research that I did. I think initially it was supplied by BAOR but a Canadian base in Antwerp was set up which shipped supplies to Hannover and the GHA. The answers to your questions are drawn from my memory of the research which I did sometime ago. I will check my notes to see if I am right.
Bob

BobG,
Further to your inquiry and my response to you about the movement overseas of the 27CIB, I regret that I was wrong in a number of areas. I checked my notes and found that Historical Report No. 51 Army HQ on pages 14-15 has the entire movement order, parts of which follow:
" Part of No 3 Movement Control Group RCASC was flown over by aircraft, the balance on the 'Empress of Scotland' on 28 Sep 51."
" Finally, an air Advance Party flew to London on 3 Oct 51 and proceeded to Hannover in advance of the parties travelling by sea."
" Another Advance party of 8 officers and 130 OR's embarked at Quebec on the T.S.S. 'Canberra' a Greek Line vessel and sailed 4 Oct 51 for Hamburg arriving there on 14 Oct 51."
"Another Advance Party embarking at Montreal on 20 Oct 51 aboard the S.S.'Columbia' also of the Greek Line and sailed directly to Rotterdam".

" The main body sailed in six serials as follows:
Serial 1 T.S.S. 'Canberra'
Serial 2 M/V Fairsea
Serial 3 S.S. 'Columbia'
Serial 4 T.S.S. 'Columbia'
Serial 5 Sailed from Halifax on 8 Dec 51
Serial 6 Sailed from Halifax on 6 Dec 51
Reinforcement drafts were sent over by regular transatlantic liners"
" To the end of 1951 the total numbers transferred to Europe were 294 officers and 5303 other ranks"
Bob

BobR
Thanks for you as ever detailed reply. The Trials Troop I was with were due to move to Canada in autumn 1964 on the Empress of Canada but due to project slippagage we ended up sailing from Liverpool to Halifax on the SS Carinthia, a Cunard Line ship, in Jan 1965, a most civilised way to travel. Movement from Halifax to Montreal was by rail, CNR I believe. Subsequent move to Yuma, Arizona, was CNR to Chicago and then The Rock Island Line to Yuma, a memorable journey. Returned to to UK in Dec 1967 on the SS Sylvania again a Cunarder. Met the girl who became my wife on this trip she had spent two years nursing in Canada and was one her way home, turned out she lived only 20 miles from my home.
Bob

Just noticed the promotion - that was quick must an early Xmas pressie.

BobG
Thanks for the interesting details of your service in Canada and the US as well as the romantic side of your trip back to the UK on the SS Sylvania. Compliments of the season to you and yours.
BobR

Bob R/Bob G

Regarding the Logistic system for the resupply of 27 CIB in the very early days of the this site I was commissioned by the then webmaster to write up an account of the BAOR Canadian Brigade, This can be found off the main Home Page of the site, it is badly dated now with the fresh information that Bob R has kindly provided as well as Steve and my researches into the earliest days of BAOR and needs a rewrite

The Canadian Army has always had a love/hate relationship with the British supply systems (stemming in part, I believe, from the experiences of the Canadian contingents during the Boer War in South Africa in the early 1900s).

One of the reasons the 27 CIB initially deployed into BAOR not the American Zone was their supposed familiarity with British equipment and systems. However this resupply system must have been supplemented by purely Canadian materiel. There was indeed a small Canadian unit in Antwerp to handle this task, known as HQ Canadian Base Units Europe which could have increased in importance after the move south to Lahr.

Having done a tour in each zone. To my way of thinking we were better off in BAOR. Even though we were later on in the US zone, we were still technicaly part of BAOR. The Americans saw us as a joke and poor one at that.

Still remembering the War of 1812 I suppose ..

Len (Ciphers)

ciphers wrote:

Still remembering the War of 1812 I suppose ..

Len (Ciphers)

Yeah, yanks are poor losers.

JPW
I had two postings to HQCBUE,both in Ft Henry Soest.When I was told of my first posting in 63 I had to ask where I was going,Antwerp was mentioned but it seems that the adm side moved to Soest early on.There was still RCOC present at a depot in Lier just outside Antwerp.

As an addendum to the trooping info,I was in Movement Control or as they now say Traffic Management,arrived at Ft Henry in July 63,and those people rotating back to Canada that yearhad arrived by sea and had the option of returning the same way,but that was the last year.My family moved via RCAF on a CL44 Yukon to Dusseldorf where there was an augmented rotation staff in the summer and just one civilian and two RCAF loadmasters as permanent staff to handle a weekly freight flight,Soest had to supply an officer and one other for that flight,go down Tuesday,work Wednesday,come back Thursday,and as I was a Cpl at that time and low man on the totem pole got more than my fair share of those trips,but the per deum allowances were quite generous so it took the pain out of it.

Baor(27CIB)surfers,
Installment No 21 A Scary River Crossing Exercise

Want a definition for a scary exercise? Put 10 untrained men, some of whom who cannot swim, each loaded down with full equipment and a weapon, into a small boat without life jackets or flotation rings in a totally unknown body of water. A Warning Order was posted advising that Bravo Coy RHLI would be conducting river crossing exercises somewhere in the GHA. Each of the platoons was given a series of grid coordinates for their particular exercise area. Platoon weapons were to be carried and the support company would provide two boats per platoon. I'm not positive about name of the river but think it was the Leine which runs through Hannover north to the Weser further to the west. There was a bestseller book called,"Red Storm Rising" by author Tom Clancy where the river Leine was portrayed as the obstacle in the path of the Red Army's drive to the Rhine River and the North Sea ports in the Netherlands. When the Sp Coy vehicle dropped off our boats, I asked where are the life jackets and flotation rings? There are no jackets or rings but not to worry there 's a 10% casualty rate he added trying to be funny. Not on my watch! Sgt Cox and I took a boat and conducted a recce of the river banks on both sides looking for white water and strong currents in order to find the most suitable embarking and landing areas for the boats. Neither of us had done any training in river crossings. After finding an acceptable crossing site we returned and undertook an assessment of the swimmers and more importantly the non swimmers in the platoon. Unfortunately there were about three or four who could not swim. I had passed my swimming requirements and outdoor education training with canoes and kayaks for my teaching certificate but this was different. We set up a buddy system for the non swimmers allocating a two on one rescue plan. Our plan was to practice crossings first without wearing or carrying steel helmets, webbing, equipment, and weapons. As well, non swimmers had to take their boots off and all others had to untie their boot laces. We did several shallow water practices getting in and out of the boats. When a man got out on one side of the boat the man on the other side moved to the centre to keep the boat balanced. Seating in the boat was arranged as follows: one man in the prow, four paddlers on each side, and one man in the stern with a paddle acting as rudder man. Total 10 men. The first crossing was done with one boat, the other boat with Sgt Cox and two men acting as a possible rescue boat. Surprisingly, the crossing went off without a hitch. We did this over and over working all the men into the routine. It was not until the second day that we did the crossings with full equipment and weapons; it also went well. My final instruction before our first crossing was if we capsize do not lose your weapon and if anyone drowns let it be said nobly at his military funeral that he drowned still clutching his rifle.LOL The exercise exceeded my expectations but it was a huge relief to return to base safely and without losing a weapon. In the picture below I'm second from the front on the left side; Sgt Cox is at the front on the right side.


When we trash talked about the exercise in the mess it came out that one of the platoons had lost a rifle. One of the subalterns took a number of hits about this; had he dived in to retrieve it? . Hell no, he said, I couldn't swim and it wasn't a total loss because the man returned with his rifle bolt. LOL
Look for the next installment about the Maschsee in Hannover
BobR

Very soldierly looking and I like that serious look on the Bren Man. Well done that platoon. Rum ration all around.

JPW
Reference and further to your recent post regarding the logistical support for the 27CIB, BAOR during the period 1951-53. I am pleased to hear that you are taking on the re-write of this logistical boondoggle especially during the formative process in 1951. For the research during this time I would refer you back to the Historical Report No 51 Historical Section(G.S.) Army HQ. I reviewed it again and have picked out the pages and paragraphs which require a second look for your task
Page 13 Para 36- Reference Order in Council P.C. 5598 of 18 Apr 51
- Debates House of Commons 18 Oct 51 Claxton which explains the
grouping of the Cdn Brigade with the British, Belgian & Netherlands forces
as well as the disposition of No 410 -Squadron of the RCAF.
Page 11 Para 31-The issuing of US weapons
Pages 11 & 12 Para 32-Deals with the difficulties of supply i.e. particularly with the artillery
25pdr/105mm howitzers
Para 33- the delays with the selection of the tanks
Page 16 para 50- Ist Cdn Base Ordnance to be located at Bicester, Oxfordshire.
The Hon Brooke Claxton, Minister of Defence in the St. Laurent Govt. was the architect for the organization and deployment of the Brigade in Germany. In your research when Claxton's name surfaces take note. He was a very clever man; he completed his first year at McGill University and then dropped out to serve Canada and the Empire in WW1. He became a Warrant Officer, and was decorated; when the war ended he returned to McGill graduating as a lawyer. He was elected to parliament and rose quickly to become one of Canada's sharpest Ministers of Defence even though he was a Liberal LOL. BTW he also signed my Commission.
In my continuing research and writing on the 27CIB BAOR I still have some sub units to finish such as:
RCASC(No 55 Transport Coy)
RCAMC(No 27 Field Ambulance)
RCOC( 27 Cdn Inf Bde Ordnance Coy)
RCEME(No 194 Infantry Workshop)
C Int C(No 2 Field Security Section)
In my research, if I run across anything of a logistical nature I will keep you posted.
Good luck in your mission.
Merry Christmas
BobR

Baor(27CIB)surfers,
Installment No. 22 The Maschsee von Hannover, 1952 Part A
As posted previously there were three sites in Hannover which were known as the premier meeting places for the avant garde in the city, namely under the tail of the Ernst August statue at the Hauptbahnhof Platz, the Uhr and Cafe Kropcke at the Kropcke Platz, and the Maschsee meaning man made lake. One could walk to all three sites quite easily as they were centrally located. The construction of the See was started in 1934 under the aegis of the Nazi city administration as a make work initiative and was completed in 1936. The opening was timed to coincide with the Olympics in Berlin in the same year. The Olympics and other significant locations in Germany served as show places of the achievements of the NSDAP. The Maschsee was referred to as the "blue eye'' of Hannover and was a large recreational lake with swimming, boating, a walking and jogging trail around the entire perimeter of the See. It took about 90 minutes to walk the full circuit. On a Sunday afternoon it was a predominately family oriented crowd. There was a rumour that many were afraid to swim in the See because of the huge fish which were referred to as monsters. They were a species of Asian Carp, known as bottom feeders, which helped to keep the See clean. it had a uniform depth of about 2 metres. As part of the promotion of this Nazii utopia there were three monuments spaced at intervals around the shore. The most significant and largest was the Fackeltragersaule which means 'torch bearer monument'. The torch bearer was mounted on a high stone column and he stands on a huge globe representing the world. The sculptor was obviously mesmerized by Hitler's vision of the superiority of the mythical German Aryan race, because the Greek god like figure is striding off the top of the globe passing the symbolic torch of Nazi achievements and aspirations to the next generation. Inscribed on the base of the column was the ubiquitous and symbolic German eagle clutching a wreath which earlier had the swastika chiseled into the centre. In 1952 the swastika had been removed as part of the denazification process. During Hitler's climb to power starting around 1922 and subsequently during the 1920's and 30's the German people were conditioned to believe that they were destined to dominate the world.

Part B to follow
Bob R

Baor (27CIB)surfers,
Installment No. 22 The Maschsee von Hannover, Part B
The next sculpture at the See called the "Menschenpaar'' by Georg Kolbe is a very provocative portrayal of a nude man and woman who are supposed to be the typical Germans of the Aryan master race. A literal translation of the name of the sculpture means human couple but the 'bottom line' interpretation is called '' the naked at the lakefront."
.
The third sculpture is another nude male called the ''Schmimmer ''shown diving into the See. Didn't get a picture of this one. And now for the disappointing results of our mission to the Maschsee. Yes, there were crowds of people there on the Sunday afternoon of our visit but it was a family dominated throng and the frauleins seemed to have previously arranged dates. We were clearly not invited guests. This was my only visit to the See during my tour of duty in Hannover. But I had determined that the best place to rendezvous was at the cafe at Kropcke Platz where Maria was still " a person of interest''.
BobR

Baor(27CIB)surfers,
The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.
Recently one of our Canadian senators in a speech in the senate went on record in the public forum to recommend that Canada dismiss the iconic beaver as a symbol in Canada's official emblem. Ms. Nicole Eaton , appointed by PM Steven Harper, represents the Conservative party of Ontario in the senate. She is also a columnist for the newspaper, the National Post.

Steven Chase, a writer for the Toronto Globe and Mail, reported Ms Eaton's remarks in his column on 27 Oct 2011. The following are quotes from her speech:
''beavers can't cut it as a national symbol but the polar bear can''
''the rodent has had its day''
''it's time to trade in a 19th century 'has been' for a 21st century hero''
''the polar bear with its strength, courage, resourcefulness, and dignity is perfect for the part''
''many accuse the dentally defective rat of being a nuisance that wreaks havoc on farmlands, roads, streams, and tree plantations''
''the polar bear is more noble and rugged; it is the world's largest terrestial carnivore and Canada's most majestic mammal and it survives in the harshest climate and terraine in the world''
Ms. Eaton is clearly portraying the beaver as being ugly and bad but she does not present a balanced view and she has not done her research homework in a number of areas on this issue.The beaver has been the emblem of the country for over three hundred years. The Hudson Bay Company used the beaver as its symbol since 1670 and the wealth of the company was made on the backs of the beaver. In its never ending pursuit of the beaver for its pelts, the opening of the Northwest followed. The beaver emblem has become the official symbol of Canada's sovereignty not only in the north but from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Ms Eaton also chooses to ignore the fact that the iconic beaver symbol has been used by a host of Canadian regiments from the Boer War through two World Wars, the Korean War, and beyond. The beaver was selected because it demonstrates admirable human qualities such as industry, determination, perseverance, and most importantly unique engineering skills. But Ms Eaton would now have us trash one of our most historic symbols for the more widely portrayed polar bear.

The senator regards our Canadian polar bear as much more desirable and a welcome replacement for our beaver. Not so!! She describes the bear with endearing words like 'dignified', 'noble' and 'majestic'. Ms Eaton and others of her animal activist crowd always portray the bear in pictures as lovable, motherly, and as a pristine white fur ball. Has anyone recently seen pictures of the bear devouring those cute, young, helpless seal pups which are its principal food source? And what about pictures showing the male bear devouring the young polar bear cubs.? The only pictures we see every year are the ones which the activists use to show the slaughter of the seal pups by the Newfoundlanders in the spring seal hunts. There is no argument that the polar bear is one of Canada's very important symbols but let's be fair about the presentation of facts here. This issue is being posted in this forum because there are Canadians using the Baor forum and whose opinions, hopefully, will be of value when I write to Ms.Eaton about this issue. In this regard, opinions from anyone using the forums will be appreciated. Please provide a "yes" or "no" response to the two questions below along with your comments.
1. Leave our beaver alone?
2. Would the polar bear be an acceptable substitute for the beaver?
Another post will follow shortly regarding some of our other iconic animals in Canada which may deserve consideration as emblems for the military and its advertising.
Thanks for listening,
BobR

1. Yes, leave our beaver alone. ( I've always liked beaver)

2. No.

Obviously Ms Eaton has set a low standard for her self and failed to reach it. (T'iss normal for a Canadian Senator). Will go through life pushing on pull doors and walking up the down escalator.

We must remind our BAOR members from England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Australia and New Zealand, that our Canadian senators are selected on basis of party loyalty, low intelligence and of course for the gold plated pension. Reality and common sense has nothing to do with the house of sober second thought. Other wise known as Patronage.

I went to school with senator Bob Runciman from my home town of Brockville Ontario. As a lad he was very smart and good companion. Now in the senate, he automaticaly became a num nut. Strange what a free pay check and gold plated pension will do to normal people.

Hardrations,
Thank you for your support for the retention of the beaver as one of our most important symbols of Canadian sovereignty. I hope you don't mind if I include your excellent assessment of our Canadian Senate in my letter to Senator Nicole Eaton.LOL No doubt, you have heard in today's news that PM Harper has added 7 additional Conservative party loyalists to this august body. I was hoping that Harper would start following through on his stated mission of reforming or abolishing the senate. I do remember Bob Runciman who was fast on his way to the top until he started making some rude comments in the public domain about activists. Too bad. You mentioned your origins in Brockville,Ont. My former boss John Cochrane, Director of Education for Huron County, was in the Brockville Rifles and later in the Lorne Scots Regiment in Brampton, Ont.
Take care
BobR

ritter wrote:

Hardrations,
Thank you for your support for the retention of the beaver as one of our most important symbols of Canadian sovereignty. I hope you don't mind if I include your excellent assessment of our Canadian Senate in my letter to Senator Nicole Eaton.LOL No doubt, you have heard in today's news that PM Harper has added 7 additional Conservative party loyalists to this august body. I was hoping that Harper would start following through on his stated mission of reforming or abolishing the senate. I do remember Bob Runciman who was fast on his way to the top until he started making some rude comments in the public domain about activists. Too bad. You mentioned your origins in Brockville,Ont. My former boss John Cochrane, Director of Education for Huron County, was in the Brockville Rifles and later in the Lorne Scots Regiment in Brampton, Ont.
Take care
BobR

Bob, by all means include my assesment in your letter.That's the cleaned up version. I'll gladly send on the earthy one if neccesary. I was a Brockville Rifle lad at one time. When I enlisted in the militia it was the 32 Loc Bty RCA then reverted back to the Brockville Rifles in 59/60.The B.R.'s were Rifles up to the end of WW 2 became Anti-Aircraft RCA then a Loc Bty. I'm trying to place Mr. Cochrane, doesn't ring a bell. I have a movie of 32 Loc Bty on Nov 11 parade 1959.

Hi im new to this site, i was just hoping to get some info on the 27th brigade cause my grandfather was in it at the time. He was based in Germany his name was Lucien Galipeau also known as Spot . for his distinctive large birthmark right in the middle of his forehead he was from Huntingdon, Quebec he passed away in 97

NickGalipeau wrote:

Hi im new to this site, i was just hoping to get some info on the 27th brigade cause my grandfather was in it at the time. He was based in Germany his name was Lucien Galipeau also known as Spot . for his distinctive large birthmark right in the middle of his forehead he was from Huntingdon, Quebec he passed away in 97

Nick you could write to DVA in Ottawa and request his records. Do you know his unit, regimental number and approx time of service?

Best of luck

Hardrations

Hi Nick,
Welcome to the Baor(27CIB)forum
In addition to the suggestions sent by Hardrations can you tell us if he served in the Infantry, Artillery, Armour, or in one of the support units in the 27CIB. There were over 5000 men in the brigade so any piece of information which you have will help in the search for your grandfather's service. We will look forward to your continued posts in this forum.
BobR