27th Canadian Infantry Brigade

Baor(27CIB) surfers,
Installment No. 11 Platoon & Company Infantry weapons(to be read with reference to my post on 9/10/2011).
The distribution of the weapons to the 27CIB in 1951 from the available supply can best be described with the classic army acronym FUBAR which requires no translation. Even the army historian was totally befuddled when he attempted to research his Report No 51 Historical Section (G.S.) Army Headquarters dated 6 May 1952. His report stated on page 11 para 31," Initial plans for 27 Brigade specified that the Force would train on U.S.A. type equipment as and when it became available. Since none was at hand on formation, however, the intention was to begin training on existing type equipment and issue U.S.A type weapons without indent as early as possible. By 4 Jul 51 all available U.S.A. type weapons, ammunition, pamphlets and charts had been distributed to units and Corps Schools, and units of 27 Bde Gp were ordered to commence training on these weapons at once. U.S. weapons intended for use included the 9mm pistol, .30 rifle,.45 submachine gun, 60mm mortar, 81mm mortar, 3.5 in rocket launcher, 75mm recoiless rifle and 105mm howitzer".
Para 32 "From the files consulted, however, it is not clear what U.S. weapons were actually issued. Difficulties in supply soon appeared and by 3 Oct 51 a decision had been taken to equip 27 Brigade Group and replacement units with the following types of weapons:
U.K. types
.303 rifle No 4
.303 Bren machine guns
.303 Vickars machine guns
9mm Browning pistols
9mm Sten machine carbines
17 pr Atk guns (until suitable recoilless rifles became available)"
All the U.K. weapons listed above are shown in my previous post to this forum. It subsequently turned out that any U.S. weapons which had arrived had to be returned. 25 pdr guns were shipped from Canada for 79 Fd Regt RCA. The 105mm howitzers which were being used had to be withdrawn along with the ammunition and placed in maintenance. It is not clear when the 105mm howitzers were reactivated. As reported earlier Centurion tanks from the U.K.were purchased and delivered to "C" Sqn RCD. All of these measures were to remain in effect until the end of 1953. The most grievous result was that the infantry battalions did not have a hand held anti-tank weapon for much of their deployment and had to rely on the 17pdr towed anti-tank gun.
Bob

Bob

Thanks for the latest installment, a fascinating read as ever

Regarding the use of British equipment. Somewhere in the background to the deployment options is a statement to the effect that the Canadian Brigade chose to reinforce the British rather than the Americans because their organisation and supply system was very similar to the British and similarly were familiar with British equipment (the Canadian Brigade part of the Commonwealth Division in Korea was similarly equipted and organised I believe.

Tony
The (Farmer) Johns was the nick name for the Regina Rifles on account of the majority of their soldiers being recruited from the farming communities of Saskatchewan

Hello BobG,
Thank you very much for your response to my earlier post on changes at Hannover since I was posted there in 1952. I am sorry about my delay in responding but I was away for several days during our Thanksgiving holiday. Your recollection of Hannover is interesting as you are very familiar with Kropcke Platz which was one of the very vibrant centres for Hannoverians to escape from their misery of living in homes which were just shells of their former houses. The trams which had been replaced during your service were our main means of transportation from Hannover barracks to Kropcke Platz. My wife and I visited Hannover in 1976 and had a dinner at the cafe; we were renting a car and I attempted to find the Hannover barracks. The area seemed to have been replaced by high rise apartments; never did find the base or surroundings which had been familiar to me. You are one of a very small number of people who I have met in this forum who served in Hannover and I look forward to hearing further about your recollections.
With friendly regards,
Bob

Baor(CIB) surfers,
Attention Tony E,
Thank you for your responses to my earlier posts. I am very pleased to hear from you as there are very few service men who served in the GHA during our time and who are also members of the Baor forums. In your case it is even more interesting as your service in Hannover predates my own. You mentioned your basic training at Camp Borden in 54. I did my advanced basic training there with much of it being done in Borden's satellite, AFVR Meaford on Georgian Bay. It was deemed too easy doing infantry digging in the sandy soil at Borden so we did our digging in the heavy clay soil at Meaford. We had to do a four day march followed by a 1 night march to get from Borden to Meaford. We were in tents but more often out than in with swarms of mosquitoes plaguing us day and night.
You mentioned your encounters at Hannover with what we now call our 1st nation people and I should add that they never let us forget it.
. The Reginas a.k.a. the Regina Johns were a regiment in my Rifle battalion but I never had much connection with them. I did not have any native Indians in my platoon but I heard a bit about them. You asked ,"Were they that bad?" I can honestly say that they were about the same as the derelicts we had who were recruited hastily when the idea of a NATO Bde was proposed by our Govt. However, it is a well known that natives do not handle alcohol well. There are no, what we know as Liquor stores or beer stores on our reservations. I think the same rule applies in the native towns and villages in the Territories. Recently one of my grandsons was applying for admission to the RCMP. I knew that he was not a hunter or a fisherman and I warned him that if he made it he would be sent to Regina where a significant part of the basic training is learning about the care, management, and the riding of horses. I told him what you fork in the front of a horse you also have to fork away from behind the horse.LOL I don't get it; policing in the territories is all about ATV's, snowmobiles, and motor boats, no horses. I counselled my grandson to apply for one of the provincial police forces, Ontario, or Newfoundland -Labrador ( The Royal Newfoundland Constabulary). Forget about Quebec you have to be a francophone and Newfoundland -Labrador is not a heck of a lot better because you can wind up policing in the wilds of Labrador. Policing in the territories is very dangerous work because of domestic disputes involving liquor and drugs. A policeman can never go one on two in a domestic because after you have subdued and cuffed the male the wife will suddenly do a 180 and assault you or worse. All natives have guns and knives and they know how to use them. But I need not to have worried about my grandson; he progressed very well through the many hoops one must jump through to be admitted. Unfortunately at the last they checked his face mail and found that he was using it to set up some drinking parties with friends. And this was after I had lectured all of my grandchildren to stay away from face book. Go figure.
Sorry about getting carried away with my rambling. I look forward to hearing from you in regard to our service in Hannover.
With friendly regards,
Bob

Bob
Iwas in Hannover from Oct 50 till Apr 51,doing my National Service in the RASC at 80 Supply Depot,and as I have described in detail somewhere else in the forum there was an urgent need for a L/Cpl in the newly reformed 11 Armoured Div, and I was chosen to move to Bielefeld.
London/Edinburgh Barracks was a Transit Camp at that time,I only visited it once on sick parade, got a ride there in a truck,but had to walk home,with a sprained ankle.
What is now the Casino on the Maschsee was the NAAFI Club.Some of my later aquaintances in Canada who had been there at the time referred to somewhere in the vicinity known as "Two Mark Park"
Getting back to London/Edinburgh I have has a look on Google and there were German barracks in about the same location.but in a much more built up area than we remember.
I know what you mean about the derelicts that get recruited in a hurry,we had the same problem during the Cuban Crisis.It was decided that southern Ontario needed an emergency civil defence organization,so we all had a crash course and alot of NCOs were sent out to the various militia armouries to train the newly recruited volounteers.It was a farce the instructors sent from our company were as bad as the students,the winner in that conflict was Molson and Labbats Breweries.

Rgds Tony

Hi Steve,
Thanks for your last post on your connection with the Canadian Major in 67. I have never seen the caravan which you described. I got the use of a safari cot a couple of times on field exercises with my commodity exchange. More about that in a future post.
Regards,
Bob

HI Bob, I've just been into Google Earth and found what I think was London/Edinburgh Barracks. My German friends used to refer to them as Bothfeld Kaserne,so I looked uo Bothfeld and found between there and Sahlkamp just below an autobahn interchange were two sets of buildings that looked like barracks.One had a reference point on it which came up as " The army is gone," just below that and to the right another refence point showed"Offiziersheimgesellschaft," officers mess. I'm not familiar with the way they were laid out having only been there once as mentioned 60 years ago,but the position seems right.

Rds Tony

TonyE wrote:

Bob
.
I know what you mean about the derelicts that get recruited in a hurry,we had the same problem during the Cuban Crisis.It was decided that southern Ontario needed an emergency civil defence organization,so we all had a crash course and alot of NCOs were sent out to the various militia armouries to train the newly recruited volunteers.It was a farce the instructors sent from our company were as bad as the students,the winner in that conflict was Molson and Labbats Breweries.

Rgds Tony

Tony,
You have to be talking about the National Emergency course. I well remember those. I was home on leave having a few drinks over at the Legion in Brockville and some of the saddest excuses I ever saw in uniform,(Militia) were the WW 2 vets trying to relive there army days past. A few peed their pants from excess beer and one managed to crap in his. It was really, really sad. But then John Diefenbaker was not the sharpest tool in the box when it came to being P.M. and having a military to worry about. But the interesting thing for me, was the Legion was in my old Grade 2 & 3 school. Neato having a beer in my old class rooms.

Hi Tony,
Thanks for your recent messages about the Hannover garrison where you listed the exact time that you served there. Do you recall using the tram street railway going from the base to Kropcke Platz and back? I think that it ran on Podbielskistrasse but my memory may be off on that. Two mark park was the name given to the Stadt Park in Hannover. It was a notorious place for hookers and the riflemen and others went there because all the known brothels were out of bounds and patrolled by the Provost. I am not able to use Google Earth very well because of the eye strain. When I was based there in 52 the Rifle Bn and Infantry BN were based in London\Edinburgh barracks and the Highland BN at nearby Chatham barracks. I believe that the first Canadians to be based there arrived in Nov/Dec 51, I don't know what units were based there before that.
Nice to hear from you;let's keep in touch
Bob

Bob
In my time the trams from the London, Edinburgh, Chatham and Langenhagen barracks area ran on Vahrenwalderstrasse linking Langenhagen to the Hauptbahnhof. I am sorry to hear that your eyesight prevents you from using Google Earth as the London, Edinburgh and Chatham complex is still readily identifiable. Podbielskistrasse runs from the eastern suburbs in towards the city centre passing just north of what was BMH Hannover.

BobG

Iwas surprised to find all of our comments on the forum come up in Google if you happen to hit the right subject.When I was trying to find out more about the German Army's use of London/Edinburgh barracks and up came my entry for 80 Supply Depot which gives a lot of detail about Hannover in 50/51,I had forgotten where it was .

That picture of the 25 Pdr Bob, shouldn't that be the Canadian flag in the corner ?

brum
I think that if you were to google 25pdr you would never find a site that shows the 25pdr anything other than British. The 25pdr is an icon of Britain not Canada.
Never thought I'd hear anything like that from an RA
I think that you are just trying to rattle my cage eh? LOL

ritter wrote:

Hi Tony,
Thanks for your recent messages about the Hannover garrison...I believe that the first Canadians to be based there arrived in Nov/Dec 51, I don't know what units were based there before that.
Nice to hear from you;let's keep in touch
Bob

Hi Tony and Bob
The first British Army units in Hannover would be 8th Armoured Brigade command 30th Corps later 30th Corps District taking over from the Yanks in Hannover City in May 45 disbanded Mar 46 but 8 Armoured Brigade Workshops REME and 8 Armoured Brigade Ordnance Field Park and 552 Company RASC were disbanded later…the research is still not yet clear but on the disbandment of 5th Infantry Division Yorkshire Barracks Braunschweig in Sep 47 the units merged with Hannover District HQ Sterling House Hannover…as recorded in BAOR Locations Sep 48 16th Independent Parachute Brigade Group HQ and Signal Squadron arrived at London Barracks Hannover from Schleswig-Holstein and also recorded that 2nd Parachute Regiment and 23rd Parachute Field Ambulance RAMC were also located in Hannover the Brigade left for UK Dec 49…hope this helps and watch this space JPW and my research will be published soon when time to devote to it permits
Best regards
Steve

Hi Tony
I have noticed the same thing about some of our Baor posts showing up on Google sites. Didn't realize that I was being regarded as an authority for something; Isn't there a computer axiom about garbage in; garbage out? LOL
Thanks for your help in guiding me to the former Hannover garrison i.e. London/Edinburgh Barracks. I managed to locate Sahlkamp strasse just below the Autobahn exchange with an expanded help of the satellite map. Even found McDonalds but still have not zeroed in on the former camp. I'll keep looking. Thanks
Bob

How's this for Canadian Brum.

Members of "B" Troop, 5th Field Regiment RCA, firing 25-pounder near Malden, Holland, 1 February 1945. From left to right: Sergeant Jack Brown, Bdr. Joe Wilson, Gunners Lyle Ludwig, Bill Budd, George Spence, and Bill Stewart.

BobG
I should explain further about my declining visual acuity. I am on my optometrist's watch list for cataract surgery but still deemed not ready for it. When one reaches age 80 in Ontario one has to be retested for a driver's license every two years by the Ministry of Transportation, a written test, an eye test, and possibly a road test as well. I've been through the process twice without having to do the road test. Got some good advice from my granddaughter who had a summer job with Transportation administering driver's tests to Srs. She said if you go to sleep during their pretest monologue or creep in with the aid of a walker you get fingered for the road test. LOL
I am very glad that you set me straight on Vahrenwalderstrasse as the street rail route from the Hauptbahnhof to the former camp during my service there in 52. With the aid of the largely expanded satellite map, I traced my way north along VWS from the station to the autobahn exchange. What I now need from you is an artillery reference point and then an add or drop, go right or left two fingers. LOL.
Is the camp on the R or L going north on VWS?
I suppose the parade square is now all filled up?
Do you recall the greatly damaged barrack block at the Hannover garrison which Steve posted for me on one of my earlier posts?
With TonyE's and your help I should find it eventually.
Bob

ritter wrote:

brum
I think that if you were to google 25pdr you would never find a site that shows the 25pdr anything other than British. The 25pdr is an icon of Britain not Canada.
Never thought I'd hear anything like that from an RA
I think that you are just trying to rattle my cage eh? LOL

Cage Sir ? Rattle ? Me? Nooo !

I do know there was a hell of a lot of 25 pdrs made in Canada, (in fact I have a photo of one I saw recently). Not to mention the "19 Set", the De Havilland Mosquito and later, the Beaver. Even my (deactivated) No 4 .303 was made in Canada.

I don't think we, the British would have been on the winning side without the Canadian contribution to the war.

Hardrations wrote:

How's this for Canadian Brum.

Members of "B" Troop, 5th Field Regiment RCA, firing 25-pounder near Malden, Holland, 1 February 1945. From left to right: Sergeant Jack Brown, Bdr. Joe Wilson, Gunners Lyle Ludwig, Bill Budd, George Spence, and Bill Stewart.

Great picture, thanks. Sadly by the time the picture got to me it had shrunk somewhat and only four of the detachment could be seen.

They're firing at a low elevation, the enemy must've been close at that time.

brum wrote:

Hardrations wrote:

How's this for Canadian Brum.

Members of "B" Troop, 5th Field Regiment RCA, firing 25-pounder near Malden, Holland, 1 February 1945. From left to right: Sergeant Jack Brown, Bdr. Joe Wilson, Gunners Lyle Ludwig, Bill Budd, George Spence, and Bill Stewart.

Great picture, thanks. Sadly by the time the picture got to me it had shrunk somewhat and only four of the detachment could be seen.

They're firing at a low elevation, the enemy must've been close at that time.

The system shrinked the photo from the start brum. But mentioning low elevation. My first father - in - law was RCA 25 pounders in Italy. His only two war stories he told me were
1: He always tried to have hard boiled eggs in his small pack
2: They spent most of a day just before moving up on Ortona trying to place a 25 HE round through a small window in a well built stone barn. No luck. Must have been a slow day and lots of ammo to waste.

Oh #3: All he would mention about Ortona was that, " It was rough".

The first guns were produced by removing 18-pounder barrels from their carriages in favour of the new gun barrel and breech, creating the "18/25-pounder" and being officially designated the "Ordnance, 3.45-inch." In metric, the gun measured 88mm - which would become a name closely associated with the famous German anti-aircraft and later dual purpose anti-aircraft/anti-tank gun of the Second World War. The designation did not stick, however, and sentiment won out in the designation being changed to the more traditional "25-pounder

I believe I saw one in front of the RCA Depot barracks in CFB Shilo in 75/76. They also had the spoked wooden wheel removed and had rubber tires mounted. I looke down in side the wheel and you could see where the spoked wheel would have been attached.

I will now drop this subject.

Baor(CIB) surfers,
Installment No. 12 The Men and Their Weapons
This post is related to the pictures posted earlier showing the weaponry of the battle support units in the 27CIB, namely 'C' Sqn RCD, RCAC and 79 Fd Regt RCA. A summary of the RCD Sqn was previously covered in my post to this forum on 26/9/2011. This installment only provides information on the deployment of 79 Fd Regt RCA and does not attempt to follow their subsequent training and their moves up to the completion of the mandate of 27CIB in Germany. All of the information which follows was taken from two sources:
"The Gunners of Canada: The History of the Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery Vol 2, 1919-1967 by Col G.W.E. Nicholson." and
"Report No.51, Historical Section (G.S.) Army Headquarters"
In a continuing effort to represent all geographical areas in Canada in the 27CIB, the Dept of Defense designated the following reserve/Militia regiments to form the 79th Fd. Regt RCA and replacements:
6th Field Regt -Levis, P.Q.
11th Field Regt -Guelph, Ont.
14th Field Regt -Yarmouth, N.S.
29th Field Regt -Toronto, Ont.
34th Field Regt -Montreal, P.Q.
29th Field Regt -Winnipeg,Man.
These Field Regt's together would raise 3 Fd Bty's, 209th, 259th, 284th. for the 79th Fd Regt
Col Nicholson reported;" the Regt entrained for Halifax 9-10 Dec 51 for the voyage to Rotterdam on board S.S. Columbia and disembarked on 23 Dec. The Regt was carried in British Army of the Rhine trains to Hohne Camp, between Hamburg and Hannover. The Camp which was close to the site of the infamous Belsen horror camp, provided for British Occupation forces after the war. Being situated on the Rhine Army Ranges, Hohne Camp also furnished convenient accommodation for the 27th Brigade's armoured squadron( 'C' Squadron Royal Canadian Dragoons), the 4th Regiment RHA, the 5th Royal Tank Regiment, and a Royal Armoured Corps training establishment. Brigade Headquarters and most of the other Canadian units were stationed in former German army and air force barracks on the outskirts of Hannover, thirty miles south of Hohne.
As reported earlier in this post no attempt has been made to track the Canadian units at Hohne to later deployments in Germany during the mandate of the 27CIB.
Look for the next installment; Inspection of a Changing of the Guard at the Hannover Garrison.
Bob