27th Canadian Infantry Brigade

Hardrations,
That was an interesting story about your Dutch 2IC on your move through Hamelin while with 1 SSM Bty RCA in 1967. We have a lot of Dutch people in our county who immigrated here after WW2. They have been very good citizens for Canada. This morning I went to visit the nursing home where my wife had been a resident for five years. I have Dutch friend there who I have known for almost 60 years. We are both age 82 and I got to know him when he worked as a custodian at the secondary school where I was a teacher. He once told me that before immigrating here he did his National Service with the Dutch Army. After he completed his basic training he was shipped off to the Dutch East Indies as an infantryman on the Island of Java. The Dutch army was fighting the Communists there under Sukarno. He was assigned to the Princess Irene Brigade. The thing that surprised me was that while he was still doing his National Service, he got put in harms way in a guerrilla war. I didn't think that sort of thing happened. Would that have happened in the UK for someone doing their National Service? Another strange thing about Klaus is that he has lived in Canada for almost 60 years and has never taken out his Canadian citizenship. Go figure. I researched the Princess Irene Brigade and found out that Princess Irene, a sister of Queen Beatrix, was a flake.LOL
Bob

As a matter of fact the Life Lease I live in was sponsored by 4 Dutch Reform Churches. So lots of Dutch people. One is Marten a baker who did 2 years in the Dutch East Indies in the army. Also remember we had a Sgt at the RC Sigs School in Vimy Barracks in Kingston who was Dutch originally and wore a service ribbon for service in the Dutch Army in the Dutch East Indies. Also worked with a fella who did his service in the Dutch Navy on the air craft carrier that eventually got sold to Argentina and was involved in the Falklands War.

Hi Bob,this is from Woodbridge Suffolk,
That street on rtght of the Kropke picture is the one I was thinking of,went down there myself to buy a watch.
UK National Servicemen fought in Malaya agaist the Communist terrorists,plus Korea and Cyprus.On BBC TV not long ago they were reporting on casualties inAfghanistan,then the shot switched to the military cemetary in Cyprus showing the gravestones,they all seemed to be 18-20 years old,and we lost more there fighting EOKA.If you get the chance read Leslie Thomas's book "The Virgin Soldiers," or watch the film,it's about NS men in Singapore,very funny in parts but grim in others.
Changing the subject yet again,we are back to Albert Pierrepoint,I read a true story of a robbery by two young men in London,I believe they were robbing a pawn shop,but it all went wrong and think it was a policema got killed.One of the passers-by who witnessed the whole thing was Mr Pierrepoint,but because of his official capacity he just kept on walking and did not get involved.Later the two young men were found guilty,one was ubder age and went to prison,the other onewas hanged by "Our Albert".He was reported to be very thorough,always observing his customers beforehand,checking weight abd height in order to calculate the right drop for a clean break.
On that happy note I'll say goonight.
Regads TonyE

Hi Burgess720 a.k.a. Tony RE & TonyE a.k.a.Tony,
Thank you both very much for clearing up my confused mind. I've now got it. It seems that we are all now on the same page about the location of the shops at Kropcke Platz in Hannover. I will get back to that site in a future post as it figured into some of my extra curricular activity.LOL TonyE you have clearly answered my query about the deployment of service people called up for their National Service in the UK and being required to serve where needed without regard to the dangers involved. I will look for the book,"The Virgin Soldiers" by Leslie Thomas. Also a very interesting story about your UK hangman, Albert Pierrepoint.
I have a question for TonyE in reference to the post made on 25/10/2011. You said that you were posted at Vinnhorst at the Cold Storage with Sgt Cox and a L/Cpl. In 1952, my Sgt No 2 Pl, B Coy, RHLI was a Sgt Cox. Surely that is not the same person?
Another memory about using the tram service in Hannover in 52. The conductors all seemed to be older women. They all wore large black leather purses with straps from which they made change. You also referred to the exchange rate of 12 marks to the British pound. If my memory serves me right I think the exchange rate was 4.2 marks to the Cdn dollar. Does that sound right?
Thank you both for your posts.
Bob

Hardrations,
We have a number of Dutch Reform Churches in our county but I have not heard of a Life Lease; it sounds very permanent. One of my auto shop teachers lived in Arnhem in WW2. He said the Germans had hidden all of their armour in farm buildings in and around Arnhem. Also did not know that the Dutch had an aircraft carrier that found its way to the Argentine Navy in the Falkland War.
Bob

ritter wrote:

Hardrations,
We have a number of Dutch Reform Churches in our county but I have not heard of a Life Lease; it sounds very permanent. One of my auto shop teachers lived in Arnhem in WW2. He said the Germans had hidden all of their armour in farm buildings in and around Arnhem. Also did not know that the Dutch had an aircraft carrier that found its way to the Argentine Navy in the Falkland War.
Bob

According to what I was told, was that originaly it was a R.N. carrier sold to the Dutch than to the Argentinan's.

Hi Bob,this was Sgt Don Cox,arrived in Hannover in 1945,married into German money wife owned a pretty nice nightt spot. He arrived at work in a new Wolsey car and changed out of his business suit into a fresly pressed uniform. Read the entry for 80 Supply Depot and you will see that we had an ex Luftwaffe Sgt Major looking after us.
TonyE

Hardrations,
Thanks for your further message about the sale of the former RN carrier "Venerable" to the Dutch and subsequently to Argentina. I did some additional research and found the following:
HMS Venerable was sold to the Dutch navy in 1948
The Dutch recommissioned her as "Karel Doorman"
The Dutch sold the carrier to Argentina in 1968
She was again recommissioned in Argentina as"Veinticino de Mayo" in March 1969
She was deployed in the Falkland War in support of landings but was never in any direct action against the RN
She was taken out of operational use in 1984
I will talk to my former Tech Director at my school about the Venerable. He came to Canada with his mother and three brothers sometime after 1939 after his father. a doctor, was sent to Africa with the 8th Army. They did not have an easy time in Canada; his mother worked in a munitions factory in Toronto. At the end of WW2 his mother and three brothers returned to England but he stayed in Canada. When he was ordered to return to the UK to do his national service around the early 50's, I think, he returned and did his NS in the RN. After doing his duty he returned to Canada. He is my authority on anything to do with the RN and I will ask him about the Venerable.
Regards
Bob

Hi Tony,
Thanks for your message about Sgt Don Cox. I cannot remember my Sgt's first name but from your description, I am quite certain that they are two different people. My Sgt was very capable and I don't remember him as a veteran; as well, I cannot picture him as the suave urbane individual that you have painted.LOL
I found your reference on Google for 80 Supply Depot with your excellent account of the Cold Storage but I could not find the account about the former German Sgt Major. I enjoyed the detail of your account especially with reference to the satellite pictures of Google Earth. I am not on Goole Earth but am using something similar. I think that you are much better in map reading than I am. I'm going to spend some more time on that.
Thanks,
Bob

Baor(27CIB) surfers,
Installment No.14 Recruiting Statistics for the 27CIB
Reference was made earlier about the intentions of the Dept of National Defense in Ottawa to represent all geographical regions in Canada in the recruitment of personnel as well as to select reserve units that were well known to the Canadian public. Report No. 51 Historical Section (G.S.) Army HQ written on 6 May 1952 and declassified on 12 Nov 1986 provides some interesting statistics on this subject. The report indicates that 146 officers and 6525 men were recruited as of 7 Jun 1951 for the 27CIB with the following geographical breakdown:
Central Canada 2439
Eastern " 1954
Western " 937
Quebec " 783
Prairies " 522
Of the 6525 men recruited, 1681 came from the Reserve Force, 4844 from the general public, 2305 were veterans, 4220 were non veterans , 2180 were married, and 4345 were single. It also turned out that a reserve force unit was activated from every every province.
The population of Canada in 1951 was 14 million and in 2011 34.6 million.
The report stated further that the full period of enlistment was to be for three years. It was intended that individual service abroad would be on the basis of one year for married and two years for single personnel. This necessitated the rotation of individuals and units with companies or other formations being exchanged from time to time. A warning order was issued by Army HQ that there would be no move before 1 Nov 1951 except for advance parties and that the move was to be designated by the code word "Migraine." LOL. Prime Minister Pearson at that time, stated in the House of Commons that there is no parallel between the situation in 1946 and the present one. The Canadian troops which left Germany in 1946 were occupation troops: the Canadian Brigade now in Germany is part of the North Atlantic integrated force and in that sense is not an occupation force at all. He added that it is a unique situation for a formation of the Canadian Army.
Next installment: Some embarrassing statistics for the 27CIB

Baor(CIB)surfers,
Installment No 15 Some embarrassing statistics
When I first arrived at the Hannover garrison for my posting to the RHLI, 1st Cdn Rifle Bn in the spring of 1952, some of my friends who had arrived on an earlier sailing met me and said that there was something that they wanted me to see in Hannover. That evening we drove out to what I believed were the suburbs of the city. We had travelled through what I would describe as a wasteland of rubble on roads which were nothing more than lanes. We finally reached a narrow lane with a row of hovels thrown up on each side of the road. They could best be compared to to the pictures we saw on TV of the shacks in Haiti following the hurricane. In this case there was a woman standing in front of each of these hovels. They were provocatively dressed or undressed and they appeared to be older women aged far beyond their actual years , the visual ravages, all too clear, of lives spent in depravity and illness. There were around 15 manning their stations on each side of the street where they aggressively eyed the Johns and gawkers as they walked along. I had been told that prostitution was legal in Germany and that the brothels and the occupants were medically checked. This area must have been outside the city jurisdiction as these shacks could never be deemed as brothels. I found it hard to believe that death camps and places like this could be found in a country that at one time had been known for its culture and standards of decency and morality. As we left I was overcome by feelings of disgust and disbelief.
It did not take me long to realize that there was a serious social and medical problem which was evident in my own platoon. There were always a few absences of riflemen in the platoon who were being treated at the Special Treatment Centre, a place that I never saw at
the Hannover garrison. In an effort to control this situation, the Town Major, who was responsible for the dress and deportment of Brigade personnel who were ''out on the town'' in Hannover established a number of roving patrols from No 27 Provost C. in co-operation with the city Polizei. These ever changing and troublesome sites were identified and declared out of bounds, places like Buebel Strasse, Hamburger Hof Restaurant, and Spanner Cafe to name a few. But it was impossible to shut down the Stadt Park a.k.a.''two mark park'' where women were a dime a dozen. It was not the case of not having anywhere to go as there were centres like ''27 Club'', Wesley House, the Salvation Army's ''Red Shield Club'', the Globe Theatre, and Hoch Haus Cinema for the francophones.
Canadian soldiers have had a long history with the problem of venereal disease going back to WW1. The Official History of the Canadian Forces in the Great War, the Medical Service stated the following for the incidence of venereal disease, ''In the Canadian Army overseas during the period of the war there were 66,083 cases of veneral disease of which 18,612 were syphilis; this yields a rate of 158 per thousand and for syphilis about 4.5 percent per thousand''. Michael O' Leary in similar research in his book,''Researching Canadian Soldiers of the First World War Part 14, the Wounded and Sick, reported,''there were 418,606 troops in the Canadian Expeditionary Force overseas. The rate of venereal disease among Canadian troops was almost 6 times higher than that of British troops and was one in every nine."
Unfortunately research on the problem in WW2 has not been found thus far. However, there is ample evidence of the problem in the CIB in Hannover during the period 1951-53 which was reported by Brereton Greenhous in his book, '' Dragoon, The Centennial History of the Royal Canadian Dragoons 1883-1983''; he reports the shocking and embarrassing statistics as follows,''One medical officer, discussing the soldiers drinking and sexual interests noted that with all the licensed brothels in Hannover out of bounds, all soldiers are redirected to the more than 2,000 D(isplaced) P(ersons) street walkers. There is a strong educational campaign to show the soldiers the menace implicit in VD, even when cured. But the rate continues at about 288 a thousand a year. The medical officer said that the comparable British figure was 1.3 a thousand. I would consider the United States Army figures of 45 or 50 a thousand a reasonable norm for Canadians. The British Army of Occupation was still on a conscript basis, ensuring that its ranks reflected fairly accurately, a cross section of the 18-to-20 year old age group with more typical values, intellect, and culture than the men of the 27th Brigade''.
And the situation did not improve during the Korean War. Jack Granatstein and David Bercuson published,''War and Peacekeeping'' in 1991 which focused on Canada's limited wars and where they stated,'' Canadians were to have the highest venereal disease rate of all of the UN troops in Korea.''
I will attempt to conclude this sorry account on a lighter note. When I returned to Canada following my tour of duty in Germany, I had been home about six weeks. When I returned home one afternoon my mother told me that Dr. Young (our family doctor) had called and that he wanted to see me. What for I asked? He didn't say, she replied. I went to see him at his office where he advised me that a message had come from my unit in Germany about my having left without taking the mandatory Wassermann blood test. What's a Wassermann test, I asked? Well in your case, it's a blood test for venereal disease infection. OK, I said without any fear of the test results but what am I going to say to my mother? That's going to be your problem, Bob, but I will tell you that the Wassermann blood test is also used to identify other infections such as TB and that it is frequently required of some immigrants coming to Canada. After thanking doctor Young, I left relieved in the knowledge that I could obfuscate the truth at home. LOL
Look for my next installment on Fraternization
Bob

For 4 CIBG in Soest I only ever knew of one case there in the 60's and one down in the 4 CMBG area in the 70's. I imagine there were more, but it didn't seem to prevelent on my tours. Now talking about Egypt that was a different kettle of fish. And when I was in CFS Alert never heard of a case there....

Hardrations,
Glad to hear that the situation improved in the 60's & 70's
I think I get it for CFS Alert LOL
What was your mission in Egypt? UN?
Bob

ritter wrote:

Hardrations,
Glad to hear that the situation improved in the 60's & 70's
I think I get it for CFS Alert LOL
What was your mission in Egypt? UN?
Bob

I was in Alert when they started to post females in. There was one pregnancy, no problem, they were married, just not to each other.

Egypt was UN H.Q's Ismailia and the Sinai Desert at Rabah. Never did figure out why we had a det there in Rabah.

In October 55 I was posted to 3Fd Amb RCAMC in Korea as a driver,and was shown pictures of the scheme our CO had authorised,all the "working girls" from the village just up the valley from us were invited down for a canoe check and if they were clean were allowed to come to our back gate in the evening for a little al fresco business. Unfortunately this info finally got to HQ Commonwealth Div and the joint was raided,I saw pictures of some of the action,and the really amusing one was a line up in the valley of our guys patiently waiting to have their name and number taken by the RMP,no futher action was taken against them,but I reckon the MP's should have been charged with" disturbing the piece".

This unit had two wards,one for the sick people and the other for VD,guess which one had the most business,we had one Aussie from 1 RAR who was down there so often we got to know him,still remember his name,Pte Chambers.

Hi Tony E,
Thank you for your very humorous response but I think that I am missing some of the humour because I am not up to speed on the terminology. Please define for me the following terms. You may even have to draw a picture for me. LOL
''canoe check'' a gynecology check up?
''al fresco business'' no idea, sorry
My medical dictionary doesn't list either. LOL
I get the "working girls" and "disturbing the piece" metaphors.
I'm sure I know the answer to your ward question.
When riflemen from my platoon got sent to the Special Treatment Center where was that located? Would it have been at No 2 Medical Liaison Detachment, RCAMC or No 79 Field Ambulance, RCAMC both of which were units within the 27CIB?
How long would the treatments usually last?
What charges were usually laid laid against the soldiers who were infected in Korea?
As a platoon Commander in Hannover I never had to lay any of these charges. Who would have laid those charges?
Thanks for listening,
Bob

Hi Bob,
Sorry about that mix up, a canoe check is the term we always used in Petawaw for a female medical inspection and seemed to be accepted all over. The al fresco bit was that it was summertime and all the action took place outdoors on the grass,not the usual huts in a village,this whole affair took place in a disused rice paddy right behind our camp. I was shown photos of it and it was something different,one guy showed me a picture of someone "in action" taken from the rear and then asked me to guess who it was,I got it right.

The treatment in our ward was about three or four days on antibiotics and the the warning,no sex or alchohol for a month,that's as far as I can remember. No disciplinary action was taken,one of our guys on detachment at Kimpo Air Base(now Seoul International) had five doses during his year tour,and apart from us telling him to smarten up no action was taken. We all had bloodtests before leaving for Canada,and then another on on the troopship before reaching Seattle,all lined up on deck doing a squeeze up for the doc,thosre that failed were held back in Vancouver for treatment,the rest of us were fed,paid and away on the 8pm Transcontinental train.

I was the Padre's driver at the time so it would have looked bad if I had participated.

Regards TonyE

I do remember now one incident of some one getting a dose in the SSM Bty. He was of Lebanese decent from the Ottawa area. He had been told no sex or alcohol for a month as Tony mentioned . So of to Amsterdam for a week end with some buds in his new Volvo. He didn't have sex as ordered but did indulge in alcohol. On the way back while driving on the autobahn he went blind (temporarily) not a fun experience for the other fellas in the car. They got out of it okay, but were not impressed with his panicking and screaming when it happened. Ah the joys of being, young, single and posted in Germany.

Bob

Always read your very personal, amusing and informative contributions and the complimentary anecdotes with interest

There is no doubt in my opinion that with your current input topped up by other Canadian contributors and the earlier input from Stephen Locke and others that the Hannover based 27 Brigade and the Soest based 4CMBG we have on this site a highly authoritive and comprehensive history of the Canadian contribution to BAOR. My only regret is that it will be impossible to match this when I come to write up the 3 Canadian Infantry Division presence in Friesland from August 1945 to March 1946

PS I think the early VWs with the small split rear windscreens were a relatively comon sight in BAOR till the early 60s, seem to remember they wre used as a welfare runabout by RAMC Doctors on call , Padres etc. Indeed elsewhere on this site is a plea for further information by a UK based enthusiast who has restored on e to its original condition complete with correct markings

Hi Tony E, & Hydrations
Thanks for your prompt responses to my message and for the information to the questions which I raised. I was very surprised to learn that about five days on antibiotics would clear VD infection. According to Hydrations's account there was a dangerous interaction between the use of alcohol and the antibiotics during the month following treatment. This seems to indicate that they were not confined to the Special Treatment Centre during the treatment phase. It seems that they were getting off too easily with just a warning especially those repeat offenders.
Bob

JPW,
Thank you very much for your kind comments about my articles about the 27CIB, BAOR in Hannover and the GHA. There were approximately 7000 Canadians who served about two years in the 27CIB during the period 1951-53. I am surprised that I have not heard from anyone else in Canada who served there at that time. I continue to look for research information to support further articles which I am planning to write. If I can be of any help in your research please do not hesitate to ask.
With friendly regards,
Bob

Baor(27CIB) surfers,
Installment No. 16 The Fraternization Issue

The views and supporting research in this article relate to the timeline of the arrival of the 27CIB in Germany in 1951, six years after the end of WW2. One cannot be an occupying force and at the same time embrace fraternization with the former enemy. They are the antithesis of each other. When WW2 ended in May 1945, the Canadian Army designated from then on as the Caof, remained in Germany for approximately a year under command of the Baor. Historical report No. 82 of the Historical Section, Ottawa deals with the matter of occupying forces as follows: '' no undertaking would be given to furnish occupational forces for the whole period of military control in Germany. Unlike the United Kingdom, the United States, the Soviet Union, and France, Canada was not one of the occupying powers, nor was Canada a member of the Allied Control Commission.'' Another Historical Report No 51 addresses the issue further on P. 16-17 as follows: as Mr Pearson, the Minister for External Affairs, has stated in the House of Commons. ''there is no parallel between the situation in 1946 and the present one. The Canadian troops which left Germany in 1946 were occupying troops; the Canadian Brigade now in Germany is part of the North Atlantic integrated force and in that sense is not an occupying force at all. It is a unique situation for the formation of the Canadian army''.
And it was unique!. When the 27CIB deployed in Hannover during Nov/Dec 1951 they came with the template and vision set by their Government back in Ottawa; their mission was to protect and to be friendly with the Germans. However, they were under command of the Baor still very much an occupying force with a template of non-fraternization with the Germans. The irony of the situation for the 27CIB was that the Germans were not buying into the sales pitch of protection and friendship being offered so generously by their new masters from Canada.This was not going to be a slam dunk for the Canadian soldiers. Hannoverians are, by their nature, a very proud , haughty, and arrogant people, the product of generations of domination by the Kingdom of Prussia. This view is supported by Brereton Greenhous in his book. Dragoon: The Centennial History of the Royal Canadian Dragoons 1883-1983. as follows,'' Hannover has a socialistic aversion to armies of any kind and there is resentment against the 1945 defeat and a respectful dislike of the British occupation with whom the Canadian soldiers are linked. Non fraternization was no longer official policy, but that was of little help because the wearing of civilian clothes when off duty was not permitted. Canadians were recognized on sight and a decent German girl's reputation is gone if she is seen with one.'' The only overt dislike by the Germans which I saw in 1952 was the graffitti painted on the walls around Hannover, ''aus mit Ridgway''. a response to US General Matthew Bunker Ridgway's appointment as Supreme Commander of NATO in June 1952.
My first interaction with any German locals was in the Officer's Mess in the Edinburgh Barrack complex where the waitresses were all matronly German women. My immediate thought was that they had all been hired or approved by the Adj who had never bought into the vision of friendliness laid down for the Brigade. His view remained : Germans are no longer the master race; we are the new masters now and let's not let them forget it. If one had any friendly intentions toward the staff one had to be careful when the Adj was present; he was the disciplinarian for the Jr. officers and he had his snitches. I thought that he would have made a better intelligence officer that an Adj. My initial and careful 'freundlich" approach to the staff was pretty well limited to to the use of polite dinner words like bitte, danke and occasionally gutenmorgen and gutentag. However, one day as I was leaving the Mess I made a gaff when I said, 'mach's gut' which is an overly familiar synonym for wiedersehen and is only used by north Germans to their close friends. A bit of laughter followed and one of the frau's summoned up enough brass to say to me, we know where you come from, a reference to my distant origins in southern Germany. They were letting me know about my inferior pedigree. North Germans generally view south Germans as bumpkins and simpletons and they use a more sophisticated and polished language which is referred to as 'hoch deutsch'. And they definitely do not like to be referred to by the pronoun 'du' which is only used for one's close friends. Southern Germans on the other hand always use the familiar "du' and 'sie' is foreign to them LOL. Did their put down bother me? Hell no, if the Muslim burka had been around during their era some of them should have been wearing them. But there was one waitress who was just attractive enough to have some added arrogance about it. Her name was Ursula and one could easily overlook the additional mileage which was on her odometer. She would never have been interested in a common Canadian Leutnant with a German name but a very inferior south German pedigree. More about her will follow later.
Casting aside a bit of my pique, it became very clear to me that establishing any kind of friendly relationship with decent frauleins in Hannover was not going to be easy. Look for my next installment, A Company exercise with the Rileys in the Teutoburger Wald.
Mach's gut,
Bob

Jogged a few memories there Bob. In 67 we had a new young German lady working in the men's mess Kitchen. I wanting to meet her offered her a ride home one evening. This was into Iserlohn. No problem there, but I had to drop her off a few blocks from home and on asking her if we could go for coffee some time, I was informed that daddy still had a lip on for losing the war. Shortly after she left working in the mess. Guess daddy cottoned onto where the daughter was working. On the whole though I made some really good friends in the German community that still hold to the present time. And yes the du was not to be shared out easily, even to the present. When I was posted back in 71 to Lahr in the Black Forest my sense of properness was ruffled when my land lady used , " du" almost immediately. Guess 4 years in Norther Germany had me thinking differently. Also I remember years later in 2002 reminding my wife who is German but came over to Canada at age 5 to use the term " sie" when speaking to people in the Hartz mountains, as , " sie" is rarely used in German conversation here in Canada.

Hardrations,
Thanks very much for your speedy response to my last post. I appreciated very much that it stirred some memories for you about your service in North Germany. There are not a lot of people from that era still hanging around, especially someone who remembers the geographical subtlety of language.
A bit surprised to hear that these fine points of conversation still persist in the North of Germany. You are right on with your observation that the use of 'sie' in conversational German in Canada is almost obsolete. A good story as well.
With friendly regards,
Bob

Bob

I too can suport the use of the familiar 'Du'. My son lives and works in Munich and we visit him and family frequently, when ever we are introduced to any of his German friends the familiat Du is used from the very beginning. In Hannover and northern Germany generally one had to be almost invited to use Du after a suitable time period getting to know one another well, I was always pleased when I was invited to use Du and felt that I had arrived at a defining moment in a relationship.

BobG