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Sadly Brum, the following are buried in France:
Joe Strudwick - Aged 15 - Essex Farm Cemetry
John Condon - Aged 14! - Poelkapelle Cemetry

I think "my" 16 year old died of the 'flu, Chris. The kids you've listed actually reached the Front.
Christ, I never left school until I was 15!
(are you involved with that group that photographs war memorial ?)

I've seen a photo of a father and son buried side by side.

Teabag,
One of my great regrets is not talking to my Granddad about his war experiences.He was in the infantry from 1914 to 1919.
In one conversation I did have with him though, he told me how his mate, who was a Lance Jack, invited him into the NCO's canteen for a pint. When my Granddad pointed out that it was "NCOs only" his mate lent him his greatcoat to get him in.
Joe got 28 days Field Punishment for that transgression. Naively I thought "Field Punishment" was something similar to our CB.
Recently I found that Field Punishment involved such things as being tied to a wagon wheel for a prescribed period of time. He was laughing when he told me the story.
Tough times, poor buggers.

brum wrote:

Teabag,
One of my great regrets is not talking to my Granddad about his war experiences.He was in the infantry from 1914 to 1919.
In one conversation I did have with him though, he told me how his mate, who was a Lance Jack, invited him into the NCO's canteen for a pint. When my Granddad pointed out that it was "NCOs only" his mate lent him his greatcoat to get him in.
Joe got 28 days Field Punishment for that transgression. Naively I thought "Field Punishment" was something similar to our CB.
Recently I found that Field Punishment involved such things as being tied to a wagon wheel for a prescribed period of time. He was laughing when he told me the story.
Tough times, poor buggers.

Bit harsh that even for those days. They would give you a medal for initiative if you did that now.

If you read any books featuring the Argie stories from the Falklands, "Two sides of Hell" is one that comes to mind. Their punishment was often to be staked out in the freezing cold and wet, so at least our lot have progressed even if they haven't.

Your grandfather might not have wanted to talk about the "nasty" stuff anyway. From what I can gather most didn't. My other grandfather was gassed but had a relatively easy war until being sent to France in 1918. Think he was in Palestine or somewhere like that before? Sadly died the year before I came on the scene and the gas had something to do with it.

At the risk of dragging this away from BAOR/BFG I will just say that the punishments were very harsh in those days. The book 'For The Sake of Example' by Babbington is a good place to start. It talks about soldiers being shot at dawn because none of their regiment had before so therefore they were shot 'for the sake....' They also did not recognise shell shock or post traumatic shock. We could probably start a website on this subject alone.
Brum - no I'm not part of any group, just very interested in the subject.

I agree Chris,
Teabag and I have large collections of war memorial photos and this could occupy a separate website.
I'd be happy to carry this on by PM though.
brum

ChrisP wrote:

At the risk of dragging this away from BAOR/BFG I will just say that the punishments were very harsh in those days. The book 'For The Sake of Example' by Babbington is a good place to start. It talks about soldiers being shot at dawn because none of their regiment had before so therefore they were shot 'for the sake....' They also did not recognise shell shock or post traumatic shock. We could probably start a website on this subject alone.
Brum - no I'm not part of any group, just very interested in the subject.

There appears to be something missing here: you write "It talks about soldiers being shot at dawn because none of their regiment had before so therefore they were shot 'for the sake....'

Because none of their regiment had -- what? -- before? Are you saying innocent men were shot as "an example" to the others??? Ye gods!

I realize things were different in 1918, and I think the concept of 'war crimes' was unheard of, but surely no civilized nation would shoot innocent men, let alone their own innocent men?

This website is quite informative.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dccfarr/sad.htm

Stephen, no - what it says is that if nobody from that Regiment has been shot then the first one 'eligible'(so to speak) had no chance of it being commuted to Life, because Haig thought that an example should be made so that regiment would not forget. I am not a huge fan of Haig and his 'ideas' of casualty figures and discipline! But that would be the medic in me! Look at the link above, it is a good description. A lot happened that we will probably never know about.

ChrisP wrote:

Stephen, no - what it says is that if nobody from that Regiment has been shot then the first one 'eligible'(so to speak) had no chance of it being commuted to Life, because Haig thought that an example should be made so that regiment would not forget. I am not a huge fan of Haig and his 'ideas' of casualty figures and discipline! But that would be the medic in me! Look at the link above, it is a good description. A lot happened that we will probably never know about.

Some of the men "shot at dawn" had previously been decorated for bravery. They just couldnt take any more or in some cases were innocent but in shock. The whole business was disgusting and what made it worse was that it is only recently that these men have been pardoned.

I'm with you on Haig. Got all kinds of awards, titles, and land after the war yet most of his men were treated like the proverbial. Homes fit for hero's my arse.

I went in to check my profile and was delighted and overcome with emotion to discover I had been granted the rank of WO2, an honour so far denied me in my somewhat hum-drum life. What a thoughtful birthday present from some kind soul.

That Field Marshall's baton I've been packing around all these years is looking more realistic every day!

ChrisP wrote:

Stephen, no - what it says is that if nobody from that Regiment has been shot then the first one 'eligible'(so to speak) had no chance of it being commuted to Life, because Haig thought that an example should be made so that regiment would not forget. I am not a huge fan of Haig and his 'ideas' of casualty figures and discipline! But that would be the medic in me! Look at the link above, it is a good description. A lot happened that we will probably never know about.

Ah, that clarifies it somewhat...no doubt the regiment didn't forget! Or the poor sod's survivors, for that matter!!

As mentioned elsewhere, the concept of having PTSD ("shell shock") was pretty much unheard of or, in the case of "shell shock" pretty much dismissed. Pretty harsh.

It still strikes me as barbaric, for lack of a better word, to shoot someone to death as 'an example to others'. And as was mentioned, some of the men had previously been cited for bravery. The effect of having someone shot to death by a firing squad of their peers must have had a devastating effect on wives, children, parents, etc. The stigma would be, I should think, overwhelming. That these men were pardoned, or some of them were, decades after their executions seems pretty empty....it's been 90 years since WWI ended, give or take a couple of years, and they're just being pardoned now? Doesn't do them or their immediate families much good now, does it?

Haig certainly seemed to epitomize all that was wrong with the "upper echelons" of British society and military...totally unaware, and uncaring it would seem, about the very men who enabled him to obtain the honours etc he acquired! The very sort various colonies of the Empire were rising up against, seems to me.

On a similar subject.
I'm reading a book called "Tank men".
There's a small piece that mentions how six DD Shermans
of 4/7 DG drowned off Poole in '44.
Such was the secrecy surrounding the DD project that when the Squadron Leader wanted to write to the widow of one of the drowned men, all he was able to tell her was that her husband had "died bravely at dawn". He promised to write again, giving her more detail but was later killed, in Normandy.
One of the Old Comrades found the widow fifty years later. It transpired that she had felt too ashamed to make further enquiries, or ask for any benefits, because she thought her husband had been "shot at dawn" rather than drowned.
A sad story and one of thousands, I dare say.

Sad that Brum. Sounds like a good book so I looked it up on Amazon. Noticed one further down the page that mentions another book something to do with the first of the tank core. Oh dear! I wouldn't mind but on the book cover it has the correct word!

It's a wonder it wasn't written "corpse", standards are dropping everywhere!
It's a good book, (a library book, "£20" inside the cover)everything in it is taken from interviews with people who fought in tanks, German and Russian as well as our blokes.
I'm reading about the fighting in Normandy at the moment, it all makes for gruesome reading.
We are getting round to BAOR now though!

My Granda fought all the way through Were Wore Won, and in 1917, he was wounded in the right leg by stray shrapnel. While he was being patched up in a Field Hospital (or whatever they called them in those days), and prior to returning to the front, he was dicked to form part of a firing squad for some poor fella apparently convicted of "cowardice".

On the said morning, all six "firing squadees" were lined up, the necessary protocols were carried out and they were given the order to fire. They all missed! After a long consultation with the padre, it was concluded that it was a case of "divine intervention" and the unlucky fella was untied and led away. My Granda never found out who he was, what he'd done or where he went to after that. But he readily admitted that all the squaddies in the firing squad had agreed beforehand that they weren't going to be a willing party to cold-blooded murder.

Because of all the comings and goings and general confusion, none of the firing squadees were ever charged with anything. I still believe it must have taken an awful lot of courage in those slightly less enlightened days to do what they did.

MsG

Edited to add. Oh no! I've gone from being a REME full-screw to a Planky Sergeant. This is getting worserer by the rank!

Bugsy,

Respect the Artillery! They were there before REME or RAMC.
Your next promotion might be to RMP? Someone has to do it!

Looks like only 25 people voted yay or nay. Apathy rules, OK?

Teabag wrote:

I'm with you on Haig. Got all kinds of awards, titles, and land after the war yet most of his men were treated like the proverbial. Homes fit for hero's my arse.

Haig did do at least one good thing. Created the British Legion and Earl Haig Fund to try to improve the lot of ex-servicemen.

mjm34 wrote:

Teabag wrote:

I'm with you on Haig. Got all kinds of awards, titles, and land after the war yet most of his men were treated like the proverbial. Homes fit for hero's my arse.

Haig did do at least one good thing. Created the British Legion and Earl Haig Fund to try to improve the lot of ex-servicemen.

You've obviously never been to my local legion. Don't think any of them have ever been in uniform. It is dead easy to be philanthropic when a "grateful" nation bestows you with what he got. He never went over the top nor probably anywhere near the front but ordered plenty of others to do so. Lions led by donkey's. No disrepect to the officers who did go over the top.

Teabag wrote:

You've obviously never been to my local legion. Don't think any of them have ever been in uniform. It is dead easy to be philanthropic when a "grateful" nation bestows you with what he got. He never went over the top nor probably anywhere near the front but ordered plenty of others to do so. Lions led by donkey's. No disrepect to the officers who did go over the top.

OK, so most Legion clubs nowadays are not up to much except maybe cheap-ish beer and I agree that most members have been no nearer a uniform than getting a ticket from a traffic warden.

As for Haig, I have read a few things about him and I believe that most, if not all, of his "bad publicity" came after his death. i.e. with hindsight and in a more enlightened age.

I've also noticed that we are discussing this in the Forum Rank Structure thread, which is probably not the best place for it.

Cheers Mike

BTW, looks like we are about the same age and are both ex Scaleys. Merseyside ain't that far away. Fancy a pint sometime (it doesn't have to be in the Legion. )

mjm34 wrote:

Teabag wrote:

You've obviously never been to my local legion. Don't think any of them have ever been in uniform. It is dead easy to be philanthropic when a "grateful" nation bestows you with what he got. He never went over the top nor probably anywhere near the front but ordered plenty of others to do so. Lions led by donkey's. No disrepect to the officers who did go over the top.

OK, so most Legion clubs nowadays are not up to much except maybe cheap-ish beer and I agree that most members have been no nearer a uniform than getting a ticket from a traffic warden.

As for Haig, I have read a few things about him and I believe that most, if not all, of his "bad publicity" came after his death. i.e. with hindsight and in a more enlightened age.

I've also noticed that we are discussing this in the Forum Rank Structure thread, which is probably not the best place for it.

Cheers Mike

BTW, looks like we are about the same age and are both ex Scaleys. Merseyside ain't that far away. Fancy a pint sometime (it doesn't have to be in the Legion. )

What, drink with a Manc? Of course I would I was RTG, brother was Spec Op and another brother ED. We don't talk about the spec op because he was a real Captain. (eventually).

RTG???

Gordon. wrote:

RTG???

Radio Telegraphist.

I.E. Morse, teleprinters etc. Hated Morse and never used it but loved it as an amateur. Taught it too!